Comments on: D&D: The Lost Art of Adventure Writing & The Death of the Hobby http://www.squaremans.com/?p=93 A Writer, Game Designer, and Geek on Games, Design, Media, and Politics. Thu, 09 Sep 2010 21:09:51 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: BruntFCA http://www.squaremans.com/?p=93&cpage=1#comment-5540 BruntFCA Wed, 09 Sep 2009 13:02:48 +0000 http://www.squaremans.com/?p=93#comment-5540 You mention this Bazaar or market where people can create and share ideas. The open source comminity now has several such projects. Take a look at Maptool from rptools and the various 4e frameworks that you can load into it. YOu can design your dungeon and host it on a server. Players then connect to it; there's even some rules automation of some of the more onerous things like tracking "marks". It has quite a nice community, with the "good stuff" as you say rising to the top. Ppl have also done all sort of clever things such as connecting it to a projector for Face to Face play. U can project onto a desktop, some guy even found a way to move the "virtual" pieces on the "desktop" with via a wii remote and infra red pen. Moreover the tools are written in Java so you can run it on Mac/Windows/Linux. There's a lot going on out there already. As for myself I may concider a virtual table top game, whereas I don't have the time to trapse around town looking for a Face to Face, but each to their own. Also I think the "Starter Pack" and the Character creater released by WotC are truely excellent. I'm very impressed with the Char maker, and it's a lot of fun; it also seems a lot more polished product than some of the licenced software that's been done by Atari.....It doesn't all have to be us and then, get involved with the maptools community and see what you can come up with. WotC do seem tobe taking ages over their version, but my guess is they know if they screw it up, it could sink the ship. Here's another idea. How about make it so that when you finish you character in the maker, it can print out to a 3D printer. This means you can have the *exact* looking character you want instead of a generic one. There seems to be many possibilites out there to expand the game to be honest. You mention this Bazaar or market where people can create and share ideas.

The open source comminity now has several such projects. Take a look at Maptool from rptools and the various 4e frameworks that you can load into it.

YOu can design your dungeon and host it on a server. Players then connect to it; there’s even some rules automation of some of the more onerous things like tracking "marks".

It has quite a nice community, with the "good stuff" as you say rising to the top. Ppl have also done all sort of clever things such as connecting it to a projector for Face to Face play. U can project onto a desktop, some guy even found a way to move the "virtual" pieces on the "desktop" with via a wii remote and infra red pen.

Moreover the tools are written in Java so you can run it on Mac/Windows/Linux. There’s a lot going on out there already. As for myself I may concider a virtual table top game, whereas I don’t have the time to trapse around town looking for a Face to Face, but each to their own.

Also I think the "Starter Pack" and the Character creater released by WotC are truely excellent. I’m very impressed with the Char maker, and it’s a lot of fun; it also seems a lot more polished product than some of the licenced software that’s been done by Atari…..It doesn’t all have to be us and then, get involved with the maptools community and see what you can come up with.

WotC do seem tobe taking ages over their version, but my guess is they know if they screw it up, it could sink the ship.

Here’s another idea. How about make it so that when you finish you character in the maker, it can print out to a 3D printer. This means you can have the *exact* looking character you want instead of a generic one. There seems to be many possibilites out there to expand the game to be honest.

]]> By: Raemann http://www.squaremans.com/?p=93&cpage=1#comment-4804 Raemann Wed, 29 Jul 2009 03:04:01 +0000 http://www.squaremans.com/?p=93#comment-4804 I tend to agree with Brad when it comes to the single point of focus being the DM. In this person lies all of the things that it takes to walk around in the world. Many of us who DM like to refer to ourselves as the god of our world (note the little g) and in that sense we ensure that there is a substantive and self-perpetuating ecosystem for the people which we have adventuring therein. I think that one of the things that gives me such a following in my games relates back to a point that I made upon another post concerning my games.     " I write stories about a world and I incorporate the players into those threads. That said they have the right and are encouraged to go anywhere that they like within the world. I have actually played games where if you wandered out of the area that they wanted you to be in then you and your party became lost and wandered about till you passed out and then woke up back in your room at the inn. "       My observation is that the more transparent all of the elements of your melieu are the more people will desire to return to it. If they have to read a book to kick in a door then they will likely move on to some other pursuit, because it is entertainment after all.        The point that was made of now web nor usenet nor source for maps existing in the past is a very good and subtil comment that underlies a great many reasons that RPGs have diminished in the world of the computer. Not that the computer games have better stories - often they do not, but you can walk around in there and not have to know allot or spend 18 minutes determining who got surprised and when you get to attack. I think that the point which Brad makes here is that the level to which DMs researched their worlds, drew out their maps, hand painted source documents and prepared the experience for their players has diminished due to the ease at which generic information has become available. Simply this, people can see and feel the love that is poured into a game melieu and this level of commitment, if clear and concise will propell them to advance therein.    Thank you Visit me at my blog above or deeper in the Aether at the aetherealplane.com I tend to agree with Brad when it comes to the single point of focus being the DM. In this person lies all of the things that it takes to walk around in the world. Many of us who DM like to refer to ourselves as the god of our world (note the little g) and in that sense we ensure that there is a substantive and self-perpetuating ecosystem for the people which we have adventuring therein. I think that one of the things that gives me such a following in my games relates back to a point that I made upon another post concerning my games.
    " I write stories about a world and I incorporate the players into those threads. That said they have the right and are encouraged to go anywhere that they like within the world. I have actually played games where if you wandered out of the area that they wanted you to be in then you and your party became lost and wandered about till you passed out and then woke up back in your room at the inn. "
      My observation is that the more transparent all of the elements of your melieu are the more people will desire to return to it. If they have to read a book to kick in a door then they will likely move on to some other pursuit, because it is entertainment after all.
       The point that was made of now web nor usenet nor source for maps existing in the past is a very good and subtil comment that underlies a great many reasons that RPGs have diminished in the world of the computer. Not that the computer games have better stories – often they do not, but you can walk around in there and not have to know allot or spend 18 minutes determining who got surprised and when you get to attack. I think that the point which Brad makes here is that the level to which DMs researched their worlds, drew out their maps, hand painted source documents and prepared the experience for their players has diminished due to the ease at which generic information has become available. Simply this, people can see and feel the love that is poured into a game melieu and this level of commitment, if clear and concise will propell them to advance therein.

   Thank you

Visit me at my blog above or deeper in the Aether at the aetherealplane.com

]]> By: Jim http://www.squaremans.com/?p=93&cpage=1#comment-4719 Jim Fri, 24 Jul 2009 01:32:29 +0000 http://www.squaremans.com/?p=93#comment-4719 Ah Matt you expect to much from these folks, designers are only game bums with a job.  As far as writing good adventures, you have heard me say I never player a published adventure because they were all crap..... Ok, that is not completely true, I did play some Tunnel & Trolls and Fantasy Trip solo adventures, and I to love the Call of the Great Giant monster that drives you insane and eats you.  But almost all of the written adventures have lacked the needed ease of play and most of all heart to make them worth my time. Most of them have pages of data that spell out every copper piece and rusty weapon the player will find, but no reason as to why care about the outcome of the adventure.  They lack the story line to drive the players or the story on.  So, like most folks they fall back on the numbers...hey, the rules are great.(hey...did I just defend your argument?)I remember, like most other games the great moments in RPG as desperate battles against complex and powerful foe, and a willingness to sacrifice all to overcome the "Evil".  My Dwarf held the bridge against the horde of monsters as the party escaped with the captives.  My wizard final strikes his magic staff to weaken the Lich and allow us to win the adventure.  yada, yada, yada ....All roll players have these moments...because we had our heart in the game. Once it becomes you job, it's a need to make money that becomes important.  "What will sell?", "We need to control our Brand", and god forbid less someone steal our ideas, we will not have a job.  The best comes when they keep it simple and let the players drive the fun.  Anyone remember playing an Alpha or Beta game of Magic the Gathering for the first time? I am lucky that I have and have had the honor of playing with some great game masters and thus played in some great games.  But, to be great, they have to have heart. Ah Matt you expect to much from these folks, designers are only game bums with a job.  As far as writing good adventures, you have heard me say I never player a published adventure because they were all crap….. Ok, that is not completely true, I did play some Tunnel & Trolls and Fantasy Trip solo adventures, and I to love the Call of the Great Giant monster that drives you insane and eats you.  But almost all of the written adventures have lacked the needed ease of play and most of all heart to make them worth my time.
Most of them have pages of data that spell out every copper piece and rusty weapon the player will find, but no reason as to why care about the outcome of the adventure.  They lack the story line to drive the players or the story on.  So, like most folks they fall back on the numbers…hey, the rules are great.(hey…did I just defend your argument?)I remember, like most other games the great moments in RPG as desperate battles against complex and powerful foe, and a willingness to sacrifice all to overcome the "Evil".  My Dwarf held the bridge against the horde of monsters as the party escaped with the captives.  My wizard final strikes his magic staff to weaken the Lich and allow us to win the adventure.  yada, yada, yada ….All roll players have these moments…because we had our heart in the game.
Once it becomes you job, it’s a need to make money that becomes important.  "What will sell?", "We need to control our Brand", and god forbid less someone steal our ideas, we will not have a job.  The best comes when they keep it simple and let the players drive the fun.  Anyone remember playing an Alpha or Beta game of Magic the Gathering for the first time?

I am lucky that I have and have had the honor of playing with some great game masters and thus played in some great games.  But, to be great, they have to have heart.

]]> By: another rpg industry doomsday article - Page 4 - EN World D&D / RPG News http://www.squaremans.com/?p=93&cpage=1#comment-4560 another rpg industry doomsday article - Page 4 - EN World D&D / RPG News Thu, 16 Jul 2009 15:47:06 +0000 http://www.squaremans.com/?p=93#comment-4560 [...] Gaming | SquareMans D&D: The Lost Art of Adventure Writing & The Death of the Hobby D&D: The Lost Art of Adventure Writing & The Death of the Hobby | SquareMans I honestly don't understand folks who think that because their business model worked yesterday it [...] [...] Gaming | SquareMans D&D: The Lost Art of Adventure Writing & The Death of the Hobby D&D: The Lost Art of Adventure Writing & The Death of the Hobby | SquareMans I honestly don’t understand folks who think that because their business model worked yesterday it [...]

]]> By: Bryan Blumklotz http://www.squaremans.com/?p=93&cpage=1#comment-4529 Bryan Blumklotz Wed, 15 Jul 2009 14:31:08 +0000 http://www.squaremans.com/?p=93#comment-4529 Where WotC's DDI will not go the web will. Despite the barriers put up by the GSL this website has given players and DMs a way to share their character builder PCs with each other. http://iplay4e.appspot.com/characters I learned about this site by following James Wyatt's (D&D dev guy) twitter account: http://twitter.com/aquelajames He posted his PC up on it here: http://iplay4e.appspot.com/characters/viewSheet?xsl=jPint&key=agdpcGxheTRlchELEglDaGFyYWN0ZXIYv4AIDA#agdpcGxheTRlchELEglDaGFyYWN0ZXIYv4AIDAbuild Now, the site doesn't allow for voting and it isn't beautiful but it shows what people want and will use. And yes its free for now. Where WotC’s DDI will not go the web will. Despite the barriers put up by the GSL this website has given players and DMs a way to share their character builder PCs with each other.

http://iplay4e.appspot.com/characters

I learned about this site by following James Wyatt’s (D&D dev guy) twitter account: http://twitter.com/aquelajames

He posted his PC up on it here:
http://iplay4e.appspot.com/characters/viewSheet?xsl=jPint&key=agdpcGxheTRlchELEglDaGFyYWN0ZXIYv4AIDA#agdpcGxheTRlchELEglDaGFyYWN0ZXIYv4AIDAbuild

Now, the site doesn’t allow for voting and it isn’t beautiful but it shows what people want and will use. And yes its free for now.

]]> By: Matthew http://www.squaremans.com/?p=93&cpage=1#comment-4139 Matthew Mon, 06 Jul 2009 18:49:02 +0000 http://www.squaremans.com/?p=93#comment-4139 Well, no. If they had to pay that much, they couldn't make the game. EA routinely spends $50mil on a game, if unions increased that by, say, 4 fold, it'd be financially impossible to get a game done. You could argue that the arrival of unions and incredibly high-priced star talent would force a change in how games were made but at that point we'd be talking about a substantially different industry. And my point, ultimately, is that unlike movies, you can accurately predict which games will be good and which games will make money. I don't think unions and stars is the reason this is impossible in movies. Well, no. If they had to pay that much, they couldn’t make the game. EA routinely spends $50mil on a game, if unions increased that by, say, 4 fold, it’d be financially impossible to get a game done.

You could argue that the arrival of unions and incredibly high-priced star talent would force a change in how games were made but at that point we’d be talking about a substantially different industry.

And my point, ultimately, is that unlike movies, you can accurately predict which games will be good and which games will make money. I don’t think unions and stars is the reason this is impossible in movies.

]]> By: Jeff Tidball http://www.squaremans.com/?p=93&cpage=1#comment-4138 Jeff Tidball Mon, 06 Jul 2009 18:40:54 +0000 http://www.squaremans.com/?p=93#comment-4138 I think that the reason video games can make money more predictably than movies is because the creative talent in games is an order of magnitude less expensive than the creative talent in movies. The unions and agents—for good or ill—are the explanation. If EA had to pay as much to develop a game as Paramount does to release a movie, games would be just as big a financial crap shoot. I think that the reason video games can make money more predictably than movies is because the creative talent in games is an order of magnitude less expensive than the creative talent in movies. The unions and agents—for good or ill—are the explanation. If EA had to pay as much to develop a game as Paramount does to release a movie, games would be just as big a financial crap shoot.

]]> By: Josh Roby http://www.squaremans.com/?p=93&cpage=1#comment-3080 Josh Roby Mon, 01 Jun 2009 18:26:34 +0000 http://www.squaremans.com/?p=93#comment-3080 ...yeah. Hey there, Nick!  You seem like a reasonable person to converse with! Absolutely neither "side" (and the dividing line between the sides is murky at best) has a monopoly on what works — especially when you consider that the definitions for what 'works' and what 'success' means are hugely malleable.  There are a ton of tools and techniques available to roleplayers and to the roleplaying "industry" — and some of them work better than others for different goals.  The only thing I mean to say here is that selecting one and calling it THE solution is just silly, whether you're fingering Adventures or R-Maps or whatever.  Certainly THE solution is a combination of tools and techniques selected by context and preference. …yeah.

Hey there, Nick!  You seem like a reasonable person to converse with!

Absolutely neither "side" (and the dividing line between the sides is murky at best) has a monopoly on what works — especially when you consider that the definitions for what ‘works’ and what ‘success’ means are hugely malleable.  There are a ton of tools and techniques available to roleplayers and to the roleplaying "industry" — and some of them work better than others for different goals.  The only thing I mean to say here is that selecting one and calling it THE solution is just silly, whether you’re fingering Adventures or R-Maps or whatever.  Certainly THE solution is a combination of tools and techniques selected by context and preference.

]]> By: Bradford C. Walker http://www.squaremans.com/?p=93&cpage=1#comment-3047 Bradford C. Walker Sun, 31 May 2009 21:07:29 +0000 http://www.squaremans.com/?p=93#comment-3047 Buzz, 35 years of TRPG existence, as well as the continued dominance of D&D as well as its CRPG and MMORPG knockoffs (Diablo & WOW being the D&Ds of those media), not to mention the weight that the RPGA has in D&D design, says otherwise.  The common gamer wants to show up, sit down, play His Guy for a few hours and then go home; he doesn't care about setting, or about role-playing, or any of that Indie Rock Pete crap- he's there to play a game, not to do creative work, and that's why the indie model gets curb-stomped. Buzz, 35 years of TRPG existence, as well as the continued dominance of D&D as well as its CRPG and MMORPG knockoffs (Diablo & WOW being the D&Ds of those media), not to mention the weight that the RPGA has in D&D design, says otherwise.  The common gamer wants to show up, sit down, play His Guy for a few hours and then go home; he doesn’t care about setting, or about role-playing, or any of that Indie Rock Pete crap- he’s there to play a game, not to do creative work, and that’s why the indie model gets curb-stomped.

]]> By: Nick Novitski http://www.squaremans.com/?p=93&cpage=1#comment-3044 Nick Novitski Sun, 31 May 2009 20:50:37 +0000 http://www.squaremans.com/?p=93#comment-3044 I'd call BS on equating mass market appeal with success, but that might seem rude.  Instead I'll say that we have as much data about Matt's idea working as we do about Josh's (ie, executions so far haven't worked), and ruling out one or the other (assuming they're really talking about different things) seems premature.There's a very large gap between a camp that views the current state of storytelling in the first world as a market to be mapped and tapped, and one that sees it as a horrible accident to be set and mended.  Both want to co-opt what they believe to be the true nature and happiness of as many people as possible, but dogmatic differences lead them to anathemize each other.  They see their values as already having acted to judge the enemy: group A says that D&D is "boring" or "soulless," but group B counters that everything else is "unpopular" or "abstruse."The utility of demonizing or dismissing either side is questionable while the problem is still unsolved.  The ultimate refutation will be measurable (even, if possible, unquestionable) success in the modern field, so until someone achieves that (I think we can agree that no one has), the jury remains out and all avenues should be tried.  Just because everyone's accustomed to things being one way doesn't mean that way is right, and just because you think your way is right doesn't mean everyone owes it to you to change.I will say that playing World of Warcraft of late has given me a great deal of confidence in people's ability to enjoy doing things that others might call "too much like work."  And it has seemed to me that for some people, chess is work but acting is not, and for others the reverse is true.  (And that's hardly a perfect dichotomy: some people like running and some people like swimming and some people like reading and yadda yadda.)But even as I say that, I struggle to not set my mind too firmly in one direction, because what we need is fewer analogies and anecdotes, and more surveys and studies.  The great thing about publishing and selling things is that it can be a kind of self-funded research ("The Financial Success of Product X: Left- and Right- Brained Consumption in the North American RPG Market"), but inevitably an uncontrolled, haphazard and scattershot one.  There's a great deal to be learned about what sort of people compose the target area...and I have no idea where the money would come from!  Does Digipen fund research? I’d call BS on equating mass market appeal with success, but that might seem rude.  Instead I’ll say that we have as much data about Matt’s idea working as we do about Josh’s (ie, executions so far haven’t worked), and ruling out one or the other (assuming they’re really talking about different things) seems premature.There’s a very large gap between a camp that views the current state of storytelling in the first world as a market to be mapped and tapped, and one that sees it as a horrible accident to be set and mended.  Both want to co-opt what they believe to be the true nature and happiness of as many people as possible, but dogmatic differences lead them to anathemize each other.  They see their values as already having acted to judge the enemy: group A says that D&D is "boring" or "soulless," but group B counters that everything else is "unpopular" or "abstruse."The utility of demonizing or dismissing either side is questionable while the problem is still unsolved.  The ultimate refutation will be measurable (even, if possible, unquestionable) success in the modern field, so until someone achieves that (I think we can agree that no one has), the jury remains out and all avenues should be tried.  Just because everyone’s accustomed to things being one way doesn’t mean that way is right, and just because you think your way is right doesn’t mean everyone owes it to you to change.I will say that playing World of Warcraft of late has given me a great deal of confidence in people’s ability to enjoy doing things that others might call "too much like work."  And it has seemed to me that for some people, chess is work but acting is not, and for others the reverse is true.  (And that’s hardly a perfect dichotomy: some people like running and some people like swimming and some people like reading and yadda yadda.)But even as I say that, I struggle to not set my mind too firmly in one direction, because what we need is fewer analogies and anecdotes, and more surveys and studies.  The great thing about publishing and selling things is that it can be a kind of self-funded research ("The Financial Success of Product X: Left- and Right- Brained Consumption in the North American RPG Market"), but inevitably an uncontrolled, haphazard and scattershot one.  There’s a great deal to be learned about what sort of people compose the target area…and I have no idea where the money would come from!  Does Digipen fund research?

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